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Post by tipou on Feb 5, 2009 8:58:25 GMT
So was anyone else personally inspired by Shirley Henderson's alternate version of beautiful? what comes out of this tiny woman is so strong and beautiful, her aura makes her a giant. i am in awe of her strenght and talent. |
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Post by tipou on Feb 5, 2009 9:05:11 GMT
I think it's an improvement that, as Kate explains to Bianca, the ending shows a mutual submission of Kate and Petruchio. i have heard an interview of rufus where he said that, had it been any other way, he would have been less at ease with the role. i just looooove the guy. |
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Post by Vittoria on Feb 6, 2009 9:45:00 GMT
Character study notes.... Hmmm... ~trying to find words~ The whole submission issue has been fascinating to me for a long time (as has relationship, group and power dynamics) so I did some research on the topic a number of years ago besides my own experience and have made some observations. What I was quite surprised to discover was that submission can be a true position of power. The whole idea is that for the relationship to work when there are two powerful personalities at play, there has to be an exchange of power. One expands while the other contracts in any given situation and they exchange places of power during a fight. Otherwise, boudaries arise. Boundaries arising results in crashing together like rock upon rock which either cause a "blow up" or an eventual ceasing of communication altogether. When communication works harmoniously, it is because of compromise- either mutually or individually. If individually, there is often cause for resentment. In my own personal preference, one partner has to always have the final say regardless of the individual strength. It really simplifies matters. In my case, it has to be the man. Otherwise, I can't respect him enough for the relationship to work. He has to be strong enough to be in that position while at the same time not abusing that power via verbal and/or physical violence. There is a difference between being submissive and being a doormat, afterall. If the man is not strong enough for me, I end up "wearing the pants" every time and the man becomes the doormat- not because I am a bully. I'm not. I am simply too strong. It's bloody exhausting. If the man has power issues wherein he is a violent bully, I end the relationship as I refuse to be a doormat for anyone and refuse to be the target of abuse. If I end up wearing the pants (always having the final say and running everything), I end the relationship as I become exhausted as the man becomes a doormat and also I refuse to let a man be a doorrmat under me. Weaker men always tend to become doormats under me for some reason. I am rather "shrewish" that way. Also, if a man is strong enough but I don't respect him, I can not and will not submit because I'll be too busy within, silently laughing my ass off at him. When I come to that point, I am unhappy with myself as I lose respect for myself (I hate feeling like laughing at a man). Balance is the key. Mutual submission still has to include power dynamics. Power dynamics do not disappear simply because of mutual love. These two characters are both very strong personalities. In order to make it work, Kate had to initially totally surrender to Pet. Even when they came to a state of mutual respect and mutual submission, Pet, in my opinion, still remained in the dominant position- regardless of their individual strengths. It takes a very strong person to truly submit without fear. Pet may have become a stay-at-home dad with Kate being the breadwinner, but occupational role reversal does not caue the cessation of power dynamics either. There are fine lines which must be drawn. Although fine, they remain. So, I'm not saying there is not a mutual submission between them. What I am saying is that Pet remains the one entrusted with the power of final say. Kate remains powerful even within her submission to Pet. She simply turns the volume down enough to allow mutual harmony. Geez, it's hard to be analytical when I'm tired.  |
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Post by rueful on Feb 6, 2009 13:19:04 GMT
I guess I have a different view of submission and compromise in a relationship. To me, compromise does not necessarily mean that one person always is dominant, breeding resentment, or that neither person ever gets what they like. For example, if you like sausage pizza and I like cheese pizza, we don't have say, well, we'll never agree, so let's just order anchovy, which neither of us likes, to be fair. We can order a pizza that is half and half, so we each get what we want. Alternatively, one person may feel particularly strongly about a certain issue. If sausage pizza is your favorite food ever, and I don't feel that strongly about it, we can order sausage and I can pick it off if there is too much. But you better believe that if we're ordering pie, it's going to be chocolate and not cherry, because fruit is just not an acceptable dessert. And if there are times when we both have strong opinions, such as how much garlic is acceptable in a dish, then there's going to be some shouting until it's worked out.
This is how I see Kate and Petruchio at the end of this version. Yes, she has publicly stated that she submits herself to him. But she expects the same from him. I can't imagine Shirley Henderson's Kate deferring to him in every situation, if it's something she truly cares about. Wouldn't be much of a PM if that were the case. So I think that she's learned she doesn't have to be right on every little thing, and she can give up control without being weak. But if she has a strong opinion about something that differs from Petruchio's, say about those little triplets, I don't think she's submitting, at least without a fight. And some great makeup sex, as you and others have pointed out.
(I'm glad once in a while I can show my maturity by discussing something other than the hair.)
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Post by lizap on Feb 6, 2009 15:25:33 GMT
I think maybe the key is in that exchange when they're in bed in the morning, and Pet says 'you should always agree with me', and Kate says, 'what, even when you're wrong?,' and Pet says, 'especially when I'm wrong.' I think submission is all about not undermining a man's confidence (which is so easily done for some reason). What you're really dying to do is sit down, explain everything and direct an outcome because you can see it all so much more clearly than he can (we having brains with two working sides and operating with more intuition than the average male), but instead you allow him the grace to come to conclusions at his own speed. I think this is nearly impossible with someone whose judgment you don't ultimately respect. As far as the modern twist they put on it, of mutual submission, I see that as being about trust and mutual esteem. They both know they would never require something degrading of the other.
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Post by tipou on Feb 6, 2009 15:36:58 GMT
i love the twist on kate's speech at the end, about how she could not be equal to her man ever, since she spent her days in front of the tv eating chocolate - whenever she is not running the country, that is. and then, she manipulates petruchio into promising, in front of her whole family, that she is the boss as much as he is.
otherwise, she admits that he has a big ego which she is willing to endure and even flatter once in a while, but she pretty much runs the show - she will be PM, he will stay home with the kids, so has she decided.
somehow i dont picture kate minola as "submitted".
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Post by rueful on Feb 6, 2009 18:49:26 GMT
Lizap, you have helped me put a finger on what it is about the original version that bothers me. At the end, her submission is not demonstrated about any particular important issue. Instead, Petruchio makes a wager with the other men and then summons Kate to win that wager, thus feeding his own ego. It just strikes me as false within the context of the whole play that went before. After all, he could have literally just beat her into submission, in those days, without much censure. Instead, he wins her over nonviolently (although psychologically harshly) and then woos her. Why waste that affection on proving a silly bet? What was the point? She wouldn't have had the opportunity to undermine his confidence (as the other men's wives ultimately did to their husbands) if he wasn't showing off.
Whereas in this updated version, her ending speech comes in a natural context as others bring up the subject. Petruchio is not just showing off. Her mother and sister ask her a question and she willingly expresses her love and respect for him, of her own free will. And then makes it clear that he must do the same. It just feels like it fits better with the rest of the story and it makes me happeier that she's chosen to put her trust in this man.
By the way, I hope that it's clear I'm only talking about these characters and don't mean to get into anybody's personal preferences, because that individuality is what makes the world interesting.
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Post by Vittoria on Feb 7, 2009 2:40:36 GMT
Great points, everyone! Hmmm. more to ponder.
Indeed, this is quite groovy... Although we could go on about Rufus' hair forever, I feel as though we are all picking each others' brains on this one. Very stimulating conversation going on here.
I appreciate you all and I'm glad to be a part- albeit new- of this place.
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Post by rueful on Feb 7, 2009 14:50:23 GMT
Thanks, vittoria. Right back at you! Everyone I've read has expressed their thoughts really articulately. Honestly, it's been a long time since I've had these kinds of indepth discussions. Usually, my friends and I are so busy that when we get together we spend the whole time catching up on events ("How's your job? What are the kids up to? What did the doctor say?") rather than discussing any ideas. But I do enjoy the hair conversations, too  |
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Post by tipou on Feb 7, 2009 17:48:54 GMT
i totally agree.
i thought i was being a retarded teenager when i joined this "fan site", and yet even the silliest discussions have some intelligent undertones (sometimes under-undertones as in the hair thread, which i started, but still), which is more than can be said of most forums.
maybe only superior minds are called by the almighty to be rufus' fans!!! which would go a long way to explain that he is not more universally known !!!
seriously, it's a pleasure to discuss movies, one of my all time passion, with intelligent people such as you guys. and we're having fun too! what's more to ask!
let's be prudent though, and let's not make rufus feel that he is only a pretext for us gals to get together and chat. so we still need the silly hair & butt discussions.
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Post by rueful on Feb 7, 2009 19:43:06 GMT
Like anyone who saw our rabid posts would make that mistake!
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Post by Vittoria on Feb 7, 2009 21:14:44 GMT
Like anyone who saw our rabid posts would make that mistake! Indeed! ;D All hail the mighty Rufus!  |
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Post by chuckles on Feb 25, 2009 19:34:25 GMT
I haven't watched any rufus stuff for quite a while, but the other night me and my OH had watched a really gruesome horrible film and I felt like cheering up, so I reached for TOTS, I have seen it tons of times before but it still did the trick we both really enjoyed every minute. Rufus is just brilliant and cheered me up.
You really have a point vittoria about the man having the last word, I sometime think Im fed up of making all the decisions and want my man to just be a man and take care of everything for me for a change.
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Post by tipou on Feb 25, 2009 21:45:42 GMT
i always think i might tire of TOTS, but it's not likely, since i always end up ROTFL each time. at different scenes too.
some flicks you never tire of. when its good, its good.
plus there is no useless material there, nothing you would cut, in fact you want more. so you dont even fast forward to good part, there is always one coming.
and then who would tire of those legs. (sigh)
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Post by peach on Feb 26, 2009 2:07:17 GMT
Love those boots, did you notice the scene where he is grimacing? It's when she goes outside to look at the flat tires and runs after her. I think he might have been in pain in such high heels. It's hysterical.
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