Helen of Troy

[bluehorse]

Jan 25, 2009 21:48:50 GMT tipou said:

oh boy. agamemnon just sacrificed his daughter. hate the guy.
but at least, someone is acting in there, not just speaking and walking around. but our rufus seems to be mightily bored. another "job", i guess. every one's got to pay the rent.
and isnt ru the only guy in this thing that actually looks like a MAN?
even achilles seems to come straight out of a toy manufacture.
really.

hahaha.... so true!
the more I read on this thread, the less I think I need to have that DVD... well... not tomorrow, but ....some nice stills of Ruf legs might be enough reason? ;D

[stama]

No curtain tipou!!! Is gratifying to know that you have a firm opinion, so if you offend someone , certainly NOT ME!!!

But, everything has two sides, nothing is just black and white, it is a lot of tinge of gray. And should that role played by - for example Alan Rickman, I have the same wievon Agamemnon (stupid examle I know )

I´m so sorry I don´t see Star Wars, I´m ashamed.

I do not want to throw tomatos, I like it, just rotten tomatoes - so I thew it.

[tipou]

hehehehe!!!
i have seen some movies at which i certainly would have thrown tomatoes!!!

about "black and white" sides: i agree. some of the great villains of movieland have both sides. but i must say, aggie, as written for this series, is pretty one-sided. bad bad bad to the point that i want to say: OKAY, I GOT IT! HE IS BAAAAAAAD!! lucky rufus did not press on the "overacting"button" on top of it. it is quite amazing that he ended up looking good in it (as an actor as well) anyway.

[stama]

such films, there is much!!!

I´m not saying that he is worthy, but there is flash of his better side and maybe have a good scene cut out of film

Bluehoese look at www.roofsewell.com/HoT.htm

[nell]

Tipou, Stama, bluehorse good to see your take on my comments.

Tipou wrote

not to be mean, but i suspect some of my Rufus-board-Sisters would fall in love with Rufus all over again even if he played Jabba the Hut in Star Wars XVII.

Tipou you have such a way with words ! ;D I've not watched any of the Starwars movies (just because they are Starwars movies I guess ) but somehow know exactly what you are talking about. Of course the Fangirls fell in love with Rufus really and not Aggie - simply because Rufus is just so damn good !

However, I realised after I'd posted my comments I'd left out one groan making part. The scene where Aggie was sword fighting, his opponents sword broke and he said "That was unfortunate !". (It was pure Hollywood cheese IMHO !) I just though how did Rufus not manage to get out of having to say that. One of his smug yet sinister looks alone would have been enough just there.

[bluehorse]

LOL nell, I'm with you. HOT was really a horrible lot of Hollywood cheese.
Probably this was the challenge for Rufus. He thought by himself "now would it be to play in another REALLY bad film and still keep my dignity".
And he made it! But I don't think he ever imagined that his fangirls would like him so much in this role

And what tipou said, IMHO is so damned right (I haven't seen Starwars either, but I know exactly what she means).
Rufus could play Quasimodo and we would still need the drool basket while staring at stills, no matter what the masque people would have done with his face, wouldn't we?

[rueful]

Nell, I also liked your list of "the not so good." I think you put your finger on what I disliked about Helen--the attempt at "childlike" actually came off more as "vacant."

I saw the following comment on youtube, which nicely summarizes some of the problems (it's not from you nell, is it?)

Why does the production value look so limited?
Why does Achilles' head look like a penis?
Why DO the swords look like pieces of scrap metal crap?

Tipou, I don't want you hiding behind any curtain (partly because I suspect you might be lying in wait with a weapon so that you can finally claim Rufus all to yourself). However, I do disagree with you (surprise, surprise).

I don't think that our admiration for Agamemnon and some of his other baddies means that we are so blind that we'd love anyone he played, even Hitler, and therefore it's not Rufus's acting talent we admire but his body/looks. I think it's quite the opposite: he can make almost any character, no matter how bad (or badly written), three-dimensional enough to be human. For example, I seem to recall an extensive discussion about whether Albert in Downloading Nancy was a sympathetic character or not. I found him to be sympathetic; you could see his emotional damage and pain. But Albert was not in anyway physically attractive to me, he was just a person who I could feel sorry for on some level.

Most of the actors in HOT strictly adhered to the rule, "garbage in, garbage out." In particular, the actors playing Helen and Paris were incapable of rising above the crappy material they were given. Rufus, however, used his eyes, his microexpressions, and his voice to show the humanity behind the psycho. I thought John Rhys-Davies mostly created a real person in Priam, even though he was often given proclamations to utter instead of lines that a real person might say. And I do not fancy John Rhys-Davies.

Whether one finds the human thus created by Rufus to be sympathetic in any way obviously varies person by person. I have a "defense attorney" nature; for example, if the food comes slowly to the table at a restaurant, and my husband says we should reduce the server's tip, I will say, "it's not his/her fault the kitchen is busy tonight." Then if he says something about the food, I might say, "yes, but asparagus is not really in season." (Drives the poor man insane, as it should, but I tell him he benefits from this blindness too, as it means I put up with all his Y-chromosome traits.)

No, I'm not equating wilted asparagus with rape and murder. In real life, I fully want evil-doers brought to justice and jailed. But if someone becomes a person to me, then it is hard for me to ignore the fact that they might have a soul, experience pain, etc, and I can have some sympathy for those feelings. And that is where Rufus succeeds,* by allowing us to see Agamemnon's soul in fleeting glimpses, despite the generally poor writing.

*The exception for me is Armand, in Zorro, who was such a cartoon that even Rufus couldn't make him seem real to me in the end.

Now why I find Aggie physically attractive, that's a whole 'nother question...

[bluehorse]

hmmmm... very interesting, rueful. Had to laugh about your "defense attorney" thing.

But I think, in the end you and tipou do not totally disagree. Maybe about the liking of Aggie, but not in general. You speak about Rufus' ability to give real life to a baddie. And a three dimensional life. That's why you feel sympathy even for Aggie, even for Albert.
When tipou suspects that the fangirls would even drool on this Star War creature, she probably () means that Rufus does not need his good looks to give life to an unlikeable character and make him somehow even likeable.
I mean, it's a bit like the question: what was there before - the egg or the hen?

[rueful]

Ha, bluehorse! I see you are a natural defense attorney too!

I was interpreting tipou to mean the opposite, that some of us are so physically attracted to Rufus that we would like anyone he played, even a big blob. But you make an excellent point: Tipou and I (and everyone here) always agree on Rufus's talent.

[stama]

I would not say it better, rueful

[nell]

Good grief I seem to have opened a hornets nest here ! LOL

Rueful - I'm not guilty regarding the comments on youtube. Slightly unfair on Achilles I feel. Although granted his best bit seemed to be after he'd died and was lying face down in the dirt - I did fleeting think "Hmmm pert bum !" ;D

Bluehorse - I didn't mean to suggest the whole film was pure Hollywood cheese. But that line certainly was. Don't let it put you off getting the DVD I'm glad I purchased it

Like I said, despite my critique I did enjoy the film and I will watch it again. I do enjoy - classic tales and a bit of histoty along with a good variety of other stuff. Perhaps another reason why I find Rufus so interesting. Not only is he a very talented actor but also he performs such a variety of roles.

I was most amused by my hubby's comments after we'd watched HOT. We were spending the Bank Holiday decorating. He moaned that the weather was crap. I pointed out at least we were not decorating when the weather was nice as that would be such a waste. He said he could put up with bare walls for the rest of the summer if it meant having a nice long hot summer. He said he could make the sacrifice. He said "It's a bit like Aggie murdering his daughter". Personally I really don't think it's quite such a sacrifice ! What's he like hey ?

[rueful]

I love that R. in each his bad guy role, give a bit of humanity - no one is just bad or just good, and he has the gift to give to each his character very sensivitely.

Stama, you said what I said, but you said it much better and shorter.

It's no hornets nest, Nell. Every once in a while, I just like to blab on and on and on. It's a distraction from whatever I'm really supposed to be doing at the time. And it's a big bonus if I get to contradict my friend Tipou.

I'm not guilty regarding the comments on youtube. Slightly unfair on Achilles I feel. Although granted his best bit seemed to be after he'd died and was lying face down in the dirt -

ROFLMAO!

You'd better watch out for that hubby of yours though Nell!

[tipou]

YES, OF COURSE. CONTRADICT ME, RUEFUL, I KNOW YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!

my intervention was sometimes correctly, sometimes wrongly interpreted. but thanks for accepting my up-on-the-soapbox moment.

i guess what i wanted to say is: let's not try to transform a good movie baddy into a sweet guy with problems just because he is played by rufus. let's not insult him and his talent. i am sure he wants to give some depth to his baddies (at that, he certainly was better than the HOT director was), but he plays them as baddies anyway.

and damn, he does baaaaaad baddies. which means, really, he is good.

the ultimate compliment to an actor, i guess, is: you're the best, you are insanely handsome, but when you played tha motherf****er aggie, i could have slapped you on the face right there and then.

get my drift?

[rueful]

(LOL! Thanks, Jack Nicholson! I need you on that wall!)

I don't think anyone in this thread has called Aggie a sweet guy with problems. Just that to some viewers he was a man who did evil, evil things but who could, at some moments, elicit sympathy (or understanding or recognition, if you don't like the term sympathy). I don't like to think of him as a monster, because to me that would both reduce his culpability for his deeds and ignore the depth of the character that was created by stellar acting.

In the same vein, you could want to slap Helen and Paris for all the destruction their selfish actions wrought, but still sympathize with their great and powerful love (or you could, if you did not instead want to slap the actors for their incompetent performances that failed to portray that love).

[stama]

It's no hornets nest, Nell

it was only a healthy exchange of views among friends!


.........and what is it really true? Everyone has there own truth.