Zen - the spoiler/review thread

[chocolate]

I am waiting patiently for something thrown at me... ...still waiting

Nobody wants to kill me (still), so I will go on with what I wanted to say. (went just for a brief moment to ophelia's forecast thread, to weight the day and how much I could be hurting someone, but apparently the day is good and my words could be beneficial...)
What I meant by saying that the kissing scenes and the romantic parts were not convincing was that they were good, just not good enough to really make me believe. I know that a lot is left to the imagination and that was the general idea behind the stories, but than why when everything has to be subtle and stylish make the kissing scene in the elevator? And Rufus, next time just forget about your good manners and gentle hands and if you are going to kiss the character, don't hold back and do it somehow more real!
(arhhh, I am too harsh here, sorry!, but I know that does not change anything of what I feel and will always feel about those lovely characters, especially the one with the amazing golden-green eyes)
For me there was not much chemistry between Roof and Caterina, or if there was, they did (Rufus did!) a pretty good job trying to hide it. I give that to his way of being a gentleman in every sense of the word.
When the scene involved only Rufus he was brilliant, but when together, the situation changed. I know it is also quite awkward to film romantic and love scenes.

My other complaint was that Roof was trying too hard to be this smouldering Aurelio. Actually, it is more of a feeling that I get in some of the scenes, and it is probably coming from my personal odd interpretations and thoughts, so I am not going into the details of that. Like I said, it is more of a feeling, and I could be also wrong.

There you go. That was what I did not like in Zen. The rest was really REALLY good. And it was 3x90 minutes of Rufus.

edited: I am watching the three films again (for the 20-th time I guess), just to be sure I didn't speak too soon...

OK, so I need to apologize to Rufus. For sure it was not a first kiss in Vendetta in the elevator, but Tania had much to do with the staged feel to it.

[anyother]

Why hit or throw anything at you, Chocolate? Your opinion is your own, and I don't think many of us would feel hurt because of it.

I just don't feel the same as you, but then again the aim of Zen wasn't to make it feel completely realistic, as far as my opinion goes...and as for the kisses: I myself'd be quite happy with a kiss like that ;D.

[kissmekate]

Don't worry, chocolate. Everybody's entitled to their own thoughts, and nobody will be punished for a diverging opinion.

I see your point that some scenes may come across too stylized, that's certainly not everyone's cup of tea.

Rufus's acting is rather restrained here, but to me this was quite consistent with Zen's character. He's not a boisterous kind of guy in the books either.

[robela]

Chocolate everyone is entitled to an opinion and no-one is going to hit out at you for voicing yours!

Most of us on here look at everything concerning Rufus with 'rose coloured glasses' for obvious reasons, but I and most people on this board really really liked this quality programme a lot.

I agree with the views of the members of the production team interviewed in the Making Of part of the DVD. One of the directors I think likened it to North by North West, a film which I think came out in the 60's starring Cary Grant, which I know is before your time, but being a film fan, you may have seen on tv. I agree entirely with this description. I don't believe that the three films were meant to be serious thrillers, but more light hearted escapism type entertainment, thrilling yes but with a suave sophisticated feel not serious dark drama. The lavish sets and beautiful scenery of Rome and the Italian countryside added to the effects and the bonus was a startlingly handsome leading man smartly dressed in Italian suits and a stunning leading lady who in my estimation were very realistic in their love scenes.
Rufus captured the personality of Dibdin's Aurelio Zen perfectly in my opinion and if you read all the books you will come to understand that Aurelio is not a saint and a perfect detective. If you have watched some of the interviews that Rufus has done for Zen, he says that is one of the reasons he wanted to play the part. Aurelio is just a bloke, his life, including his love life is not perfect, it goes wrong. That is what Rufus liked about the part. I cannot say anymore because I don't want to spoil it for those of the fans who have not yet finished all the books but who want to.
We are both entitled to our opinions, but mine is that Zen is first class entertainment and Rufus read some of the books and got it absolutely right!!

[chocolate]

I never and nowhere said it wasn't what you say it was, robela. I only said I found some minor flaws in the personal moments between Zen and Tania. And that Rufus was great, just in some cases a little bit over the top.
I am not speaking about how well the books were adapted, how Zen has been described there or Tania, or any other character, or what the ideas behind the script was, I am not mentioning any of this because I don't feel I need to, the TV show is made for a vast group of people and not everyone will find the time and the desire to get into the books or will watch the extra material that comes with the DVD. For me the films as they are are a somewhat separate and autonomous thing and need to have their own quality and aura without the support of additional explanation. So I think Rufus has gotten it absolutely right. I was mesmerized when I saw the 3 films, and even bough the DVD. That comes to prove I did like everything. Now I could stop there. But I wanted to continue and was sure I will have an immediate response. Which now I do.
Robela, you are saying Zen is not a saint in the books. Well, it seems to me that Rufus in the TV show tends to lean more to the "saint" part than to the "normal detective" part. May be I see it like that because I like Rufus. Or may be because the directors decided to portray him like that. If you read my lines you will see that I do want to see Zen as more normal person...(even as gorgeous as Rufus is).
Now for the love scenes...They usually require two people there, not just one (Roof). And I have in my film collection of Rufus'es movies some excellent examples of love scenes- just will mention Tom Builder, Charles II and Mick Carpenter... all had their fair share of love, which I DO think looks believable. Between Zen and Tanya? Hm. Not so sure. Maybe I wouldn't have a first kiss like Tania did it, or would stay with my back to the man while he is obviously trying to understand me better, with my eyes closed and fussy!!! or maybe it is just me. Most of these scenes looked a little unreal, partially because of some tension. Like I said, I could be wrong...
These are the little details that I was just trying to bring out.
I root for Rufus and Zen and always will. And I want more of Zen; at the same time I want something as good, but a little different. How different? I don't know. But is this so bad?
I have taken off my red-tinted glasses, and just decided to be more objective only for Rufus'es benefit. No one could be that perfect, not even him.
As for my way of saying that I am waiting for the hits, I though you would get the joke there, it was my way to sound not that serious when I was going to sound serious anyway. It probably didn't come across the way I intended it. But I am definitely not afraid of having someone disagree with me.

BTW, I have seen North by North-West. A classic movie, made in a completely different time, with so much different technology and for people with somehow different taste for TV and cinema (yes it was before my time).

[tipou]

no hits from me.

we are used to smoldering scenes from rufus when it comes to interaction with ladies... while in this series - that is after all made for tv, so perhaps a bit more restrained than in movies - it was more of an everyday, awkward style of romancing the lady in the office, which is always a juggling act, i suppose.

i think their best scene together is when they were in their underwear, watching the bag of money, considering for a second to steal it.

there might be something about the production that is flawed - or rather, too perfect.

in the books, there is a cheesy aspect to Aurelio that we do not get in the series. he is described as somewhat elegant, but his clothes are always a bit dated. he is also older in the books. i think that rufus is playing it right (as the everyday man who wants the hot chick in the office), but he is simply too perfectly dressed and styled to really make this "everyday man" portrayal believable.

as you said, it is just one aspect of the series, and it could have been fine tuned a bit better.

the only parallel i see with "North by Northwest"... is rufus, who reminded me of cary grant in a big way. and, there too, that everyday man aiming at the hot girl, somewhat awkardly sometimes, while dressed too good to be awkward.

which does not keep North by Northwest to be in my ten best movies list of all time.

people, we have the right to make comments that are not a praise or an ode to the perfection of rufus. we are allowed to see flaws where we see flaws. it is called having an opinion, and it should not be considered as an act of high treason. rufus will be the first one to pick on blunders and imperfect scenes, and i am certain he does not view himself or his art as perfect.

fear not, everybody, the wrath of rufus WILL NOT descend upon us and destroy us in a bolt of fire because we express a slight critique about a couple of scenes in any given opus.

so, chocolate, please go on telling us your opinions and comments. i find objectivity refreshing and welcome myself. besides, i always LOVE your comments.

[robela]

Well chocolate, we will just have to agree to disagree!!

I wouldn't call it saintly to reappropriate vast amounts of money directly ignore a superior's instructions, flout the law, liaise with criminals, get caught and put in prison, in fact do things wrong but they ultimately turn out right!!

These three films are adaptations of Michael Dibdin's character, Aurelio Zen and obviously they have been adapted to create the atmosphere and feel of the novels!!

Catarina was acting out the part because she was mixed up and going through a horrendous divorce and so it is not surprising that the relationship with Aurelio is up one minute and down the next.
I have to say though that there is definitely chemistry between Aurelio and Tania on screen!

I think we do agree that we love Rufus Sewell as a very talented actor and we also agree that we would like Zen to continue and are sorely disappointed that after such a lot of work and effort was put into producing this entertaining drama series it wasn't given a fair chance with only three episodes and the audiences were left wanting more!

[joyceinva]

Chocolate - you won't get any argument from me about how the relationship with Tania was portrayed. If you've read the books, you know that the affair with Tania began slower and developed much differently than in the series. While the production company wasn't totally true to the books, they did follow what I would call the bones of the stories - they really changed the way Zen interacted with all three of the women in his life - his mother, Tania, and his ex-wife. I can see why they changed the Tania one - they felt they needed a romantic angle to draw in female viewers (ha! they had Rufus, nothing more needed). But with his mother? Frankly that only made the character weaker, made him a figure of fun - he's still living with his mama? And the bit with is ex-wife was totally off-the-wall and unnecessary.

[judypatooty]

Jun 26, 2011 20:19:25 GMT tipou said:

fear not, everybody, the wrath of rufus WILL NOT descend upon us and destroy us in a bolt of fire because we express a slight critique about a couple of scenes in any given opus.

I think if Rufus were to ever to peek in on the Rooftop (which I seriously doubt he ever would), he would laugh himself silly over this statement, and totally agree with it.

[tipou]

hehehe judy - i will take that as a compliment !!!

[judypatooty]

Jun 27, 2011 0:43:06 GMT tipou said:

hehehe judy - i will take that as a compliment !!!

As you should!

[kissmekate]

Jun 26, 2011 21:11:28 GMT @joyceinva said:

But with his mother? Frankly that only made the character weaker, made him a figure of fun - he's still living with his mama?

I didn't mind that too much. He did live with her in the books, too, at least in the beginning (although the background was slightly different, her being much older than in the series and quite age-addled).

Of course, grown-up men living with their mothers are one of those Italy clichés, but not without a reason, if my Italian colleague is to be believed ;D

[chocolate]

Jun 26, 2011 20:19:25 GMT tipou said:

i think their best scene together is when they were in their underwear, watching the bag of money, considering for a second to steal it.

there might be something about the production that is flawed - or rather, too perfect.

For me this was their best part together romantically speaking as well.
Tania/Caterina was overacting for my taste. In the beginning I couldn't put my finger on what was bothering me, but now, watching everything with a different mind set I think that was the problem. Probably in this way she has tried to compensate for her so called "crush" on Rufus, and it made interacting with him difficult for her. Could be that. Or could be the fact that her acting style is this way. I remember in Bond and she was that confident beautiful woman there, while here she is supposed to be conflicted, not so sure of herself. At least that would be my presumption. She was more witty and confident than I could tolerate for her character, at least if I compare her to Roof's one.

[chocolate]

Jun 26, 2011 21:11:28 GMT @joyceinva said:

Chocolate - I can see why they changed the Tania one - they felt they needed a romantic angle to draw in female viewers (ha! they had Rufus, nothing more needed).

totally agree here about the need to develop the romantic part. I actually like that development. Otherwise the films would be too flat and political.

I think tipou said in a very clever way what I wanted to say but did not know how to phrase it properly. Zen was too perfect for a guy that wants to be seen as inperfect.

Now I can change my point of view slightly and say what I really liked in the 3 films ;D.

- Rufus in his sleeping t-shirt and pj's at his apartment; the wooden bed with white sheets (and with Rufus in it), and that wooden chair. For me Zen sleeping in T-shirt was very natural and realistic way to show him in that (beautiful) bed. It is never easy for an actor to act half naked, especially when there is no plot line to support that, and putting him in T-shirt instead of something else gave a very relaxed and a little modern feel to the situation. (we could see the outlines of his chest,arms and shoulders there clearly )

- I did love the whole apartment where he lived. I have a thing for old-styled Italian, and not only Italian, cozy and ruffled interiors.
Even his mother I approve as age and everything. My mum is 60 and she looks not more than 45, so his mother could be that younger-looking lady. I liked also her approach to him, very subtle and supportive, and never in his face with accusations. They did have a very nice on-screen relationship. In the extra film that comes with the DVD she says that it has been very easy and a pleasure to work with Roof, because of his calm and confident demeanour!!!

- I liked very much all the support cast. They were for sure believable (some are quite famous as well) and wonderfully interacted with Zen. I loved the prosecutor!!! beautiful, plotting, feminine, stylish. And Arianna with her seductive approach. The scene where Rufus zips and unzips the dresses was wonderful! They both played it out so well. It was definitely hot in there in both meanings of the word hot.

Now you see why I took off my red-tinted glasses! It is getting difficult to look for all those new epithets in order not the repeat yourself too much! but it is also difficult to be critical when I really loved that TV show, WITH Rufus in almost every frame...and for the people that really know me they know how much of a soft core person I am and to act all harsh and critical is not an easy thing to do.

...i will have to end it for now here, but will come back for more...

[chocolate]

Just a few more lines of my likes as I watch the films again:

- I loved the scope of the show- all the wide shots of the countryside and Rome, which is rarely so good on TV, it is more common for the wide screen;
- I loved together with all other interiors/exteriors the building of the Questura di Roma. It evokes a tangible image in my mind of an atmosphere derived from a combination of old thick walls and their cool-fragranced air, the mosaic floors and the specific echo of the footsteps on them, the real wooden doors and separations with their ornamented glass panels; and the vaulted ceilings with arched openings...
- I loved very very much Arianna's place-Italian style in the interior from top to bottom (and her car)

...if someone doesn't stop me my architectural ranting may and will continue...

But I think I figured out what made me say that Rufus overacted as Zen in some places. It is not so much of an overacting as much it was (for me only!!!) that he seemed a little too dynamic for the type I envisage for his character, for this more quiet, complex, smart and dangerous sometimes "normal detective". I suppose all comes from the way Rufus is wired, his demeanor. Now I know what was just sitting in the middle of my brain and gave me no rest until I figured it out.
Okay, at last a little peace and quiet. Now, I can go again...but I think I did my fair share of good and bad regarding the show. I'd love to read some other points of view (I tend to get tired of myself rather quickly )