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Post by rueful on Jun 27, 2011 16:16:53 GMT
I've really enjoyed reading all the posts on these last two pages. It's much more interesting to discuss and debate differences of opinion than it is to read "I agree" over and over again.
Chocolate, I don't know if you've gone back to read the Pillars thread since joining this year, but there were a lot of things people didn't like about that production, and there was no bloodshed in the discussions. ;D On the other hand, most of those complaints were about changes to the plotlines and the writing, so maybe that's not a good comparison.
I do like Tipou's excellent description of the discrepancy between Zen's status as a "everyman" and his elegant appearance. Many viewers (especially us) would look at him in those suits and think, "What do you mean a woman wouldn't be interested," and it becomes a challenge to see him as a fumbling, unconfident man. It helped me to realize that the rest of the cast was also similarly attired, not just Tania. Maybe his boss looked a bit sloppier, but pretty much everyone else I can think of looked like they had stepped off a fashion show runway. So I took it as the norm for the society being portrayed, in the same way I accepted the English accents. And his suits were elegantly tailored, but they were the same few suits, rotated with clean shirts.
I think I mentioned earlier in the thread, one of my favorite moments was when the brother-in-law in Ratking said, "You're a detective?" The quick look of surprise and hurt on Rufus's face said so much to me about his lack of confidence and his fear of not being respected.
His and Caterina's chemistry or lack of chemistry is something you either feel or do not feel, I guess. It's not something one can be convinced of. Personally, I thought it was fine. Besides the scene others mentioned where they were counting money, one of my favorites between them was the one where they were smoking, outside the building. I liked how it took him a while to look her in the face, and I liked how she was trying to send him a message he wasn't getting.
(I have to say, this is from memory. I've only been able to watch it on my computer, not the televison, and I've not watched for a few months, so it will be fresh to me when it airs on PBS in a couple of weeks. Can. Not. Wait!!!!!)
Although his mother is not at all like the books, I think I like this version a bit better. In the books, she's pretty one dimensional, like we're only seeing her through his eyes. In a way, that was the case with most characters in the books, especially women (this is not a slam on the books--I loved them). We saw them as Zen saw them, and he didn't always understand their motives or their feelings. This is normal for books in which most of the action is seen through the eyes of the protagonist.
When a character is brought to life on film, they have to be fuller, or they don't seem human. We're looking at them through our own eyes, so it wouldn't make sense if his mother were just the flat, nagging, addled, dead-weight-around-his-neck that she was in the books.
Overall, I think it was an excellent series, and I'm very excited to have it finally air in the US!
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Post by chocolate on Jun 27, 2011 16:54:36 GMT
thank you, rueful, a friend in need. I though I scared off everyone with my ranting...
Like I said in the Facebook thread of Zen, I DO HOPE after the series air in the US Rufus will be seen a lot more for what he is. Who knows, a nice change may come and Zen could have some new episodes commissioned and made.
I will go back and read about TPOTE, did not have enough time and motif to do that yet. And I was just joking about the bloodshed...I know you are all tolerant ladies who can appreciate a different opinion.
Now, when I think of it, I can't wait for the end of July to see how US people will react to it. It will be an interesting sight to watch/count the guests on this board.
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Post by tipou on Jun 27, 2011 16:56:49 GMT
in fact, the convos i prefer are those with different opinions and points of views, not those "oh he is lovely" "oh yes he is" that we sometimes have (and in which i participate  ) YEAH RUEFUL ! PBS! i think its mid july. soon. |
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Post by rueful on Jun 27, 2011 17:11:38 GMT
thank you, rueful, a friend in need. I though I scared off everyone with my ranting... Never!!! Like I said in the Facebook thread of Zen, I DO HOPE after the series air in the US Rufus will be seen a lot more for what he is. Who knows, a nice change may come and Zen could have some new episodes commissioned and made. I would love more Zen, but you're right, it would be nice if it gives him more opportunities generally. Then when he becomes a superstar, we can all sit back and complain about how we were here first. ;D And the way we all like to talk, you will need a long, long block of time to go through it all!  Now, when I think of it, I can't wait for the end of July to see how US people will react to it. It will be an interesting sight to watch/count the guests on this board. The numbers guests after it aired in the UK were really incredible. "oh he is lovely" "oh yes he is" OH YES HE IS! YEAH RUEFUL ! PBS! i think its mid july. soon. Sunday, July 17th, 9 PM eastern, 8 PM central. ;D |
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Post by kissmekate on Jun 27, 2011 17:24:33 GMT
I've really enjoyed reading all the posts on these last two pages. It's much more interesting to discuss and debate differences of opinion than it is to read "I agree" over and over again. Absolutely! If I remember correctly, he says in the "Making Of" that he only had two suits he wore all the time. This matches his status quite well (and is also in keeping with the books) - he cares about his appearance and doesn't waste his money on cheap clothing, but he's not the kind of guy who can afford a whole wardrobe of tailor-made suits. And after all, being well-dressed does not rule out being a little self-conscious sometimes That's a very good example of what I was trying to get at in the previous paragraph. Or his almost painfully palpable insecurity when he has to present the current state of investigations to the minister and his lackey in "Vendetta". Those apparent weaknesses made Zen a very believable (and lovable) character in my eyes. He's not some kind of super-cop, he sometimes behaves downright stupid, but - for me at least - he came across quite authentic. And I'm with rueful about "Mamma", too. I loved the way she was painted in the series, neither the addled old woman nor some kind of pasta-cooking, rotund cliché but an elegant and rather young-looking lady who still sees her (sometimes exasperating) little boy in the grown-up man and cannot help chiding him for smoking or being late for dinner. The relationship with Tania - well, to me it appeared as if his feelings for her were deeper and perhaps more genuine than the other way around. My impression was that she felt attracted to him mainly in a more physical way, enjoyed flirting and going out and having sex and making him a little jealous - she seemed to be playing games with him in the second and third episodes, while he appeared to be seriously in love with her. I love the scenes when they talk on the phone and he tries to sneak a glimpse of her without anyone else noticing. He behaves like someone much younger there, as if he's out of practice As I've said on some other thread, it would have been very interesting to see how their relationship would have developed if the series had gone on. I'm not sure if there had been a happy ending in the long run. |
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Post by robela on Jun 27, 2011 20:10:49 GMT
Absolutely agree with you both Kate & Rue in the last posts! As for a happy ending for Aurelio and Tania? We will never know unless a miracle happens and they make more films. It would depend on the writers wouldn't it. Those of you who have read the books will know how his life develops but I don't want to mention it on here, lets just say they would have lots of scope to make his love life interesting!!! Also of course, Rufus has said he would'nt want to play him if his love life was all 'hunky dory'!!  |
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Post by chocolate on Jun 28, 2011 10:25:58 GMT
I was doing some more viewing/capturing today, and when I reached the moment when Aurelio was waiting for Tania in front of her apartment (in Vendetta, at the beginning) did Rufus really blushed there?!, or is this just some natural tint or makeup he had that evening?  I am almost sure he did, and I can never understand how he could be such a good actor, this always catches me by surprise! *i hope i'll never get used to this small, but wonderful moments |
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Post by robela on Jun 28, 2011 11:11:41 GMT
Yes, that is a lovely moment chocolate!! I don't know whether he blushes, I will have to do some more scrutinizing, but he certainly looks very embarrassed!! It is really sweet the look on his face!!! He is such a good actor!  |
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Post by chocolate on Jun 28, 2011 11:48:59 GMT
I will be adding some random thoughts here while browsing through the three films. and I am now going to admit I probably spoke too soon with some of my  , or rather too critical notes regarding Roof's part, mentioned above (chocolate is going to put some ashes on top of her head for not being careful enough when speaking ... - well, that's what we call it in my language anyway when someone feels sorry and guilty). here some of the thoughts: - I couldn't not notice how almost every frame in the three films is somehow perfectly composed and balanced. The light and the shadow, the color, the actors so perfectly lit, sometimes in a shower of light, sometimes almost in complete shadow (this with the shadow is the trickiest one)...For an untrained eye these are details that seem normal to be there, but once you get to know what amount of work is to achieve them you start noticing and appreciating them much more. If there was a way to explain myself in love to the director photography I would do that with no hesitation! (i'm sure Roof will not be too jealous  ) |
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Post by kissmekate on Jun 28, 2011 11:53:21 GMT
(chocolate is going to put some ashes on top of her head for not being careful enough when speaking ... - well that's what we call it in my language when someone feels sorry and guilty). How funny, we've got the same saying in Germany. The little scene outside Tania's house is indeed endearing. I'm not sure if he really blushes, but the expression on his face is priceless. Like a teenager. Another lovely little scene is the one when he bangs his head on the steering wheel in a "I'm so stupid, I should have known it" gesture after he has dropped Tania off and sees her in the rearview mirror with her male friend. |
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Post by robela on Jun 28, 2011 12:06:53 GMT
(chocolate is going to put some ashes on top of her head for not being careful enough when speaking ... - well that's what we call it in my language when someone feels sorry and guilty). How funny, we've got the same saying in Germany. The little scene outside Tania's house is indeed endearing. I'm not sure if he really blushes, but the expression on his face is priceless. Like a teenager. Another lovely little scene is the one when he bangs his head on the steering wheel in a "I'm so stupid, I should have known it" gesture after he has dropped Tania off and sees her in the rearview mirror with her male friend. Yes I agree Kate. Scenes like these make him so human and lovable!! chocolate - Don't feel guilty at all. We all enjoyed the discussion this brought about. I feel guilty that I reacted very quickly without digesting what you were meaning.(I can be a bit hot headed. It runs in my family)  Your analysis are first class. They make us think.  |
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Post by rueful on Jun 28, 2011 14:14:06 GMT
You ladies don't fool me a bit with your offers to put ashes on your head. You're hoping Zen will come along and ask you to be his personal ashtray! ;D If I remember correctly, he says in the "Making Of" that he only had two suits he wore all the time. This matches his status quite well (and is also in keeping with the books) - he cares about his appearance and doesn't waste his money on cheap clothing, but he's not the kind of guy who can afford a whole wardrobe of tailor-made suits. I think in one of the books it mentioned that his suits were older also--so well constructed that they'd last a long time. (I'm really excited to get the DVD so I can see the Making Of that has been captured so beautifully in screencaps! ) The relationship with Tania - well, to me it appeared as if his feelings for her were deeper and perhaps more genuine than the other way around. My impression was that she felt attracted to him mainly in a more physical way, enjoyed flirting and going out and having sex and making him a little jealous - she seemed to be playing games with him in the second and third episodes, while he appeared to be seriously in love with her. I wasn't sure if she was playing games, or if she was just enjoying the feeling of new love, a happy relationship different from the one with her husband. I don't know if you have a similar term, but in the US this is called a "rebound" relationship, one you just rush into after getting out of a previous relationship. You may think the feelings are genuine, but you haven't really worked through the emotions from the old relationship. In either case, I agree that it would have been interesting to see if they followed the books or took a different route with his love life. I was doing some more viewing/capturing today, and when I reached the moment when Aurelio was waiting for Tania in front of her apartment (in Vendetta, at the beginning) did Rufus really blushed there?!, or is this just some natural tint or makeup he had that evening? Another thing to look for on re-viewing! Thanks for pointing out wonderful little moments like this, Chocolate! |
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Post by kissmekate on Jun 28, 2011 14:22:50 GMT
You ladies don't fool me a bit with your offers to put ashes on your head. You're hoping Zen will come along and ask you to be his personal ashtray! ;D ROFLMAO  You just made my day! Right. I even think it was mentioned in more than one of the books that he is always dressed well but a little outdated because he buys quality rather than fashionable stuff. You've got a point there. When she left in "Ratking", saying she needed some time to think on her own, I believed her. Certainly the dramatic scenes with her soon-to-be ex-husband made her realize that there were matters from the past she'd have to come to terms with before fully being able to immerse herself in a new relationship. But other things like the lunch with Vincenzo Fabri seemed a bit like those little games some women like to play to make themselves more interesting to their love interest by arousing a certain jealousy. I didn't like that trait of hers too much. |
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Post by chocolate on Jun 28, 2011 14:48:21 GMT
I may still feel guilty and have ashes all over , but I do not feel that guilty about my comments regarding Tanya/ Caterina. To me she just could not reach Rufus'es level as an actor. Not that this is in any way an easy thing to do, obviously, when you have such an actor to compare yourself to, but still. She could be doing exactly what she was supposed to, and it just did not look 100% convincing. And I do not mean playing in terms of woman's playing/plotting, I mean the genuine acting for the films. Sure, there were better moments, when it looked very good, but at the same time... I don't know, if I'm just too picky about that. I like the woman, and I like them both with Rufus together (hm, well, I love Roof and only like Caterina ), but wanted a little bit more out of the latter. Or let me put it this way: Rufus as a man (a real life person), and as an actor, he has this gorgeousness about him, that leaves sometimes women speachless. He is definitely (not only by my standards) incredibly handsome and charismatic, but this fact somehow does not affect his act. Not that he is not aware of how he looks and how well he is accepted on screen, you just can not live without noticing people's reaction towards you, even if you are the most down-to-earth person, he does in my opinion very well know all of that, and at the same time his utmost effort is concentrated in playing his part in the best possible way. And the result is what we see on screen. The guy can act with every muscle of his body. We have witnessed this on many, if not on every occasion. While at the same time Caterina has the attitude of an incredibly beautiful woman (here I do not know who's standards I should quote, because I do not like her that much), and somehow this is like the most of what she delivers as an actress. Confidence is good to have as a person and as a woman, but than you need to simply incorporate it in your overall performance. In my opinion she did not do that so successfully in Zen as she should have done it. |
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Post by rueful on Jun 28, 2011 14:49:28 GMT
But other things like the lunch with Vincenzo Fabri seemed a bit like those little games some women like to play to make themselves more interesting to their love interest by arousing a certain jealousy. I didn't like that trait of hers too much. Nor me. I wasn't thinking of that lunch, you're right, that was very manipulative. Especially considering that she was well aware of the office betting, she would have known what Fabri had in his mind, and it wasn't just helping her out. |
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