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Post by tipou on Feb 15, 2009 2:30:59 GMT
After re-watching the whole episode, I'm still of the mind that the ending doesn't make sense unless those babies were clones of Gepetto (particularly in view of the things Hood says to her about organs). i know, it's like she used the money from the old lady's family to basically save her own skin. ouuuuh the bad woman!!!! as for him being tempted by "the dark side" or not, i still don't see why hood would not contemplate the possibility to to be more powerful as a scientist... he is human. and a scientist. i would like him to be so tempted, and then, of course, making the right choice.
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Post by ambra on Feb 15, 2009 21:51:22 GMT
OK, after I watched the episode again last night, something occured to me. After the press conference, when Hood says as he was holding the baby, he got a feeling of what it must be like to Gepheto, "god-like" and it made him dizzy. However, at the time he was actually holding the baby, he didn't know she was a clone and that Gepheto was involved in her creation. He just thought she was an identical triplet. So why would he have had those feelings then?
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Post by tipou on Feb 15, 2009 22:46:39 GMT
oups. i did not see that. awful mistake??
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Post by lizap on Feb 16, 2009 0:05:54 GMT
Not too awful, I think. He had just put the first baby down when the agent disclosed that there was a fourth. In fact, wasn't he actually looking up in astonishment/horror from a crouched position over the crib in reaction to that news? So it's just about the time at which he was holding the baby, that thoughts of Gepetto entered into the picture. Still, I think it is a bit of a careless mistake, as they could have easily phrased the lead in to his remarks to Rachel differently.
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Post by GreenEyesToo on Feb 16, 2009 13:08:32 GMT
YAY!! I've finally been able to watch this online without the screen freezing, so I can join in the party. I've had to resist the temptation to read this thread for days! On that last point, Lizap, I think the possibility of cloning must already have been considered for Jacob and Rachel to have been called in at all - so in that context, what Jacob later said about how he felt would make sense. (And, Rueful, I totally agree about Rufus + baby = melting heart. Had the same effect on me in Charles II and especially in Amazing Grace when he was walking in the meadow with the baby in his arms. Awwwww..... ) Ambra, re your comment about maybe Jacob and wife might have been considering a family before she got ill, another thought occurred to me, linking it with Jacob possibly having considered unethical means to keep his wife alive. In fact, not necessarily unethical. I think I'm right in saying that stem-cell research has been pretty much stalled over the last 8 years or so in the US (for political reasons that we won't go into here)? That isn't the case in the UK, and there have been a number of cases where families with a seriously ill child have had another child, whose stem cells have been used for things like bone marrow transplants to help the sibling. That's a very simplistic explanation, and it raises all sorts of ethical questions about"designer babies". And we are most definitely NOT talking cloning here. Linking that to this episode, Jacob would have known about stem-cell research outside the US, so maybe his thoughts while holding the baby at the start were along the lines of "what if....?" So, yes, he could have been thinking dark thoughts about unethical deeds, but also have the conflicting emotions about what might have been if he and Maggie had, say, frozen her eggs and then used a surrogate for access to stem cells that might legally save her in another country. Or maybe I'm just going waaaay too deep into this! A few more random thoughts: - I am liking some of the characters they had in this one (especially the Immigration agent and the mother with the liver disease) but still so many of the co-stars, in all the episodes, are so blah! - I didn't really notice the hands-in-pockets thing (you look at his hands when you could be watching that gorgeous face? ) but I am getting seriously irritated by how breathy his voice is all the time. He spoke without that quality after the hallucination scene in H20, and at other times, but it's getting more frequent and I don't like it! - when he cowered from the hitman's gun, my first thought was "wimp!", but yeah, not being a trained agent, he would react like that....so sorry, Rufus! - the show is sometimes a little too preachy for my taste, and I, too, would hate for them to make Jacob too saintly. I like that the fact he is emotionally-scarred keeps him just this side of saintliness - a tad too wounded still for his judgement to always be quite what it should be (the comment that comes to mind here was "What makes him so special?" in Miracle, although I don't think that was actually as selfish as it sounded - I heard it not so much as "why wasn't Maggie saved?" as a reminder that there were so many terminally ill people around, so why was that particular boy "chosen" to be saved?). - Jacob isn't perfect, and I do like my heroes flawed (that's flawed, not floored!) (On the other hand..... ) I think my biggest problem with EH is that, unlike things like Charles II where he so inhabits the character I forget I'm watching him act, with this show I am always very conscious of watching Rufus-as-Jacob - it's something that, with him, I'm not used to. It's not his fault, it's the lame material he's landed with. He must sometimes despair when he gets the scripts.
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Post by rueful on Feb 16, 2009 15:52:56 GMT
Great episode commentary, GE2!
With regard to his wife, I agree, there are many new treatments that are illegal in the US that many other countries sanction, and there always have been. (Anybody else remember Steve McQeen heading to Mexico for laetril treatments for his cancer?) Jacob's mistrust of the miracle water and his fear that people would give up conventional, proven medical treatments makes me think he'd only have been willing to have her try something with real potential. He did mention she was in some kind of clinical trial, in one episode (scorpion episode, perhaps?). So they were willing to have her try unproven treatments if they had some sort of medical basis, which stem cells would definitely have.
Years ago, before stem cells became an issue, there was some family in Calif I think who had another baby in the hopes that she could eventually become a bone marrow donor for the couple's only other child, a teenager with cancer. I wonder how Dr Hood would feel about that. You'd think he'd be opposed, from his reactions in this episode, but marrow donation is not fatal.
. I was pleased to note, on rewatching, that Jacob was heading toward the commotion in the bathroom, not away, so his impulse was to jump in and help Rachel. But a man with a gun has a slight advantage over a brave but unarmed and sensible scientist. It was realistic, I thought.
You are totally correct that his Rufusness peeks through Jacob. He wants the character to have some humor, and to me, those funny bits are where I see him a little. It's not ideal, it would be better if the writers could help out by doing their jobs, but it doesn't bother me too much.
Ambra and Tipou wondered:
I will rudely quote myself now:
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Post by lizap on Feb 16, 2009 16:35:30 GMT
I am getting seriously irritated by how breathy his voice is all the time. He spoke without that quality after the hallucination scene in H20, and at other times, but it's getting more frequent and I don't like it! - the show is sometimes a little too preachy for my taste, and I, too, would hate for them to make Jacob too saintly. I like that the fact he is emotionally-scarred keeps him just this side of saintliness - a tad too wounded still for his judgement to always be quite what it should be (the comment that comes to mind here was "What makes him so special?" in Miracle, although I don't think that was actually as selfish as it sounded - I heard it not so much as "why wasn't Maggie saved?" as a reminder that there were so many terminally ill people around, so why was that particular boy "chosen" to be saved?). I think my biggest problem with EH is that, unlike things like Charles II where he so inhabits the character I forget I'm watching him act, with this show I am always very conscious of watching Rufus-as-Jacob - it's something that, with him, I'm not used to. It's not his fault, it's the lame material he's landed with. It's great to have you join the party, GE2; sorry you had to wait so long! I really enjoyed reading your comments. I've been noticing the breathiness, too. It's something I've noticed in some of his movies, as well; that is, that often his dialogue is harder to hear than other actors whose voices are clearer or have more of an edge (Sachem Farm is a notable example). I think the natural huskiness of Roof's voice manifests as breathiness when he is speaking more quietly, and he so often has these instances in EH when he is sort of talking through something softly to himself. I understand what you mean about being aware of Rufus acting, though it hasn't bothered me much because as you say, it isn't Roof's fault. I think TV, unless it's really of exceptional quality (which I think we all agree this isn't), doesn't provide the same opportunity a movie does, of getting lost in an alternate universe. I'm almost always aware I'm watching a show, and watching actors play their roles.
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Post by tipou on Feb 16, 2009 17:14:22 GMT
about the mumbling: unfortunately, i am a witness to the fact that scientists do mumble. a lot. whenever i see jacob hood walking around, mumbling to himself, i see my bf and my brother. this series would drive my mom crazy, she hates when they do that.
i had never noticed that rufus did it in other roles though.
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Post by rueful on Feb 16, 2009 23:33:09 GMT
Actually my husband, walking through the room while Eleventh Hour is on, has commented negatively on the breathy raspy voice. It's one reason he won't watch it, although I've told him I think Rufus's voice just sounds strained because of the accent. I think it's time for Dr Hood to be hit on the head (gently) so that he develops that disorder where you get a new accent (cleverly named "Foreign-Accent Syndrome" abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=6241218). His new accent could happen to coincide with Rufus's own. Problem solved.
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Post by GreenEyesToo on Feb 17, 2009 12:45:39 GMT
You are totally correct that his Rufusness peeks through Jacob. That wasn't quite what I meant! Watching him, I usually lose myself in the characterisation so much that I forget it's Rufus - the role takes over and it's not like I'm watching a portrayal but the real thing. With Jacob, I just don't get that. I love that Rufus is starting to get his own natural humour and twinkliness into the role, but I'm still watching him "act" rather than "become", if that makes sense? Re the voice, I love husky and I love raspy. And I have noticed some breathiness previously, but it just seems so accentuated now. Maybe it's designed to be a counterpoint to Rachel's mode of speaking. I just find it distracting.
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Post by tipou on Feb 17, 2009 13:51:56 GMT
question to all: does "humour" fit in this series? i am asking, because i don't necessarily agree that it does.
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Post by GreenEyesToo on Feb 17, 2009 13:58:35 GMT
I think it does. I have worked with police officers, and they tend to use humour as a means of releasing tension and of defusing minor arguments.
Jacob and Rachel would need that safety valve with the type of work they do - plus, any close working relationship has humour. I'm not talking slapstick, but certainly teasing and sending each other up would be realistic. And in-jokes between themselves, that sort of thing.
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Post by tipou on Feb 17, 2009 14:08:43 GMT
I think it does. I have worked with police officers, and they tend to use humour as a means of releasing tension and of defusing minor arguments. Jacob and Rachel would need that safety valve with the type of work they do - plus, any close working relationship has humour. I'm not talking slapstick, but certainly teasing and sending each other up would be realistic. And in-jokes between themselves, that sort of thing. again, jacob hood is no a policeman. he is a sadly widowed scientist, fighting evil. not much room there for humour. then again, there was humour even in x-files, but if rufus really wants humour in EH, i would prefer a darkest sort of it. which would not fit with his candid, almost childlike rendering of jacob. hence my question. it always seems to me that more "humorous" scenes somehow do not "fit" for that reason. we still dont know how jacob feels about his past, i would be so much more interested in that. there seems to be so much efforts put into making the show "lighter", i hope they dont forget how "dark" it should be... again, do i make any sense?
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Post by GreenEyesToo on Feb 17, 2009 14:43:48 GMT
I was only using police officers as an example of the type of pressured job where humour is used - of course Jacob isn't a cop, but he's not a lab-based scientist either, and the situations he finds himself in with Rachel are just the sort where they would feel under pressure and would need to find coping mechanisms. Yes, he's widowed, and he's still grieving, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be amused by things or would shy away from a bit of fun now and then. I think that is what Rufus is starting to do with the character.
Some humour needn't make it EH-lite. I think it does need some, even if it's black humour (and I can see we're not going to agree here, Tip) - if they make the show too dark, it won't be interesting, just depressing. The subject matter they are choosing, by its very nature, is already dark and there needs to be a balance. Even the gloomiest person finds humour in something.
I'm not talking cracking-inappropriate-jokes type of humour, but the sort that would naturally develop between two people working closely together.
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Post by tipou on Feb 17, 2009 15:40:26 GMT
GE2, if they keep it as you say, we agree.
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