Vinyan

[tipou]

May 28, 2011 19:32:44 GMT chocolate said:

I agree with joyceinva that in this movie Rufus portrays his character extremely believable. Real, strong and weak, full of hope and doubt, loving and desperate at the same time. I did not like Emmanuelle Beart, but only because there is something in her- face and overall appearance in general, that really does not appeal to me.
Most of what I wanted to say was already said, so I will save those words. I only wanted to add a little bit more about Paul's motive to start the search.
I think (generally speaking) that men are sometimes more sensitive and romantic than we are. In Paul's case he was very practical and down-to-earth, but the faint hope that his son could be alive grew stronger after he watched the film with those kids. That was the sensitive side of him, I could love. I understand why a woman feels the absence of a child very deep, but after watching Rufus perform, could understand why the father wanted to go searching for his son. Not only to be next to his wife, but also because HE needed to go for his loved little one. During the search his practical side brought him back to earth while the loss made the mother go deeper into the darkness.
Difficult film to watch and the ending was inevitable. The whole story prepared us for this ending exactly. Anything else would be superficial. Not that an american director for the Hollywood crowd couldn't make it positive, but thank god this wasn't the case. As much as I cried for Rufus, I wouldn't like the movie if it was not as deep as it was.

hey hey chocolate! men more sensitive and romantic than we are??? ohohoh what a daring statement to make.

i like it.

that may be the little sobbing boy inside them that some of them try to hide all their life, and that makes them compensate by acting like the provider and the protector. which is why the responsibility of the boy's death ultimately falls on paul, btw.

i partly agree with you about the ending too. as upsetting and over the top as it may be, i prefer it to any ready-made hollywood ending that is so often just imposed on us because, you see, we are too frail and vulnerable to take anything else, we have to be reassured before leaving the theater, or else we might be lost to the world.

well, vinyan is not so condescending.

but i am still trying to decide if its ending is only a pretentious stylistic move from the director, or the best ending this movie could have. as you say, a bad ending was to be foreseen, but still we could have understood the ultimate crush of that couple with a sequence more in tune with the sobrity of the movie.

[tipou]

Jan 31, 2011 13:32:06 GMT kissmekate said:

Nov 7, 2010 12:33:57 GMT VictoryGirl said:

This is a fabulous picture, I loved his stubbly looks. And those sad eyes in the pic just make me want to take him home and make him forget. So much raw emotion in this movie.

i have to post this picture again.
just because.
anyone disagrees?

[rueful]

Jun 2, 2011 3:49:43 GMT tipou said:

i partly agree with you about the ending too. as upsetting and over the top as it may be, i prefer it to any ready-made hollywood ending that is so often just imposed on us because, you see, we are too frail and vulnerable to take anything else, we have to be reassured before leaving the theater, or else we might be lost to the world.

well, vinyan is not so condescending.

but i am still trying to decide if its ending is only a pretentious stylistic move from the director, or the best ending this movie could have. as you say, a bad ending was to be foreseen, but still we could have understood the ultimate crush of that couple with a sequence more in tune with the sobrity of the movie.

SPOILER

This is my problem with the ending. The director did not seem to trust us to understand that Paul and Jeanne's lives have been ended, their relationship has been destroyed, that they are like the vinyan, restless dead spirits among the living, without giving us the literal, visual evidence of Paul's "guts being ripped out." The director gave up on the audience at the last moment, and I'm sorry he did. It is condescending, just not in the traditional way.

[megagem]

So, I've owned this film for a month now and finally got around to watching it. .
I'm a huge fan of symbolism (especially subtle symbolism) in both writing and in film and I love how the symbols began almost immediately. The ocean Jeanne emerges from at the very beginning is, to me, the birth of her insanity and the death of keeping her feelings and thoughts trapped within her. It's both her awakening and her death in a sense. It's also where Joshua died, so it's like she's visiting his grave, in a way.
The ocean is also generally thought of as being vast and dark and unexpected. This is Paul and Jeanne's future.
Even when Jeanne's in the shower there's some subtle symbolism to me. I think it symbolizes the washing away of the feelings of temporary insanity and loneliness so she can put on somewhat of a happy face for Paul who's watching her with a smile.
Water can also be thought of in two ways. It symbolizes cleansing and the washing away of filth, but it can also symbolize the nourishment of both good and bad things (ie: the nourishment of Jeanne's determination, and the nourishment of her growing insanity). I very much like the continuous appearances of falling water. The first, being the shower, then in the alley, and as the film progresses, lots and lots of rain.

There are many moments where the sense of being separated comes into play between Paul and Jeanne not only through their opinions of their son being dead vs. kidnapped; but in much more subtle ways like in the viewing of the documentary at the beginning. Notice how Jeanne is on one side of the room and Paul is on the other.

I really liked the long close-up shots of Jeanne (at the documentary viewing) and Paul's eyes (when he re-watches the documentary...shirtless, I might add ). In Jeanne's eyes there's bold stubborn and steely yet somewhat dead determination, and in Paul's there's a living want for the possibility of it to be true. Paul is full of good intentions and a true love and support and to see his doubts melt away when he saw the little boys jumping into the sea was really lovely. I loved the child-like shake of the head. It was cute!

I thought the cab scene was great. The boldness of Jeanne when she says "I know him more than you" is profound. Then how she runs out of the cab and far away from Paul is just foreshadowing (which I'm also a huge fan of) what she will want to do throughout the rest of the film. Run away to when things were happy and when Joshua was alive. Paul just wants everything to be happy now.

I (like many of you) didn't understand the sudden re-appearance of Kim. It seemed to me that the director thought the audience needed someone "sexy" to appear to test if Paul still really loved Jeanne despite there being an obvious showing of love only moments before. Kim seemed a bit pointless anyway. I did like the look of pain in his eyes, though when Kim was telling her story to Paul in her room. It reminded me very much of Jacob in the Pinocchio episode that I've mentioned in the EH thread.

The sudden switching of minds for a moment was great too. When they see the boy posing as their son. The light of hope that appears in Jeanne's eyes is what appeared in Paul's earlier on. The stubborn determination in Paul's eyes and his quick "it's not him!" is what appeared in Jeanne's earlier on. Then, when Paul finds Jeanne's book the minds switch back again, but Paul keeps the determination....only for it to melt when they become "lost" later on. He loves Jeanne so much he just deals with everything up until the end, despite his growing aggravation...which is why I don't understand the ending. Was he disembowled because he kept his thoughts and feelings mostly inside of him? It's not like he was hiding his doubts.
The "I love you" bit is one of my favourite parts. That's where Jeanne's old self comes back if only for a moment. She needs him to continue to love her despite her losing her mind and he does so without hesitation, and continues to show that he's a good guy when he tries to help TG and then when he yells a protective "NO!" when the zombie kids approach Jeanne, so...why does Paul get such a violent end?

One other thing that annoyed me was near the end where the horror film cliches came into play: the random rock music when Paul and Jeanne see the zombie kids for the first time, the mist hanging about the land, Jeanne lagging behind (we ladies like to lag, don't we...at least she didn't fall while running), the singing-chanting done by the creepy old lady while the both of them are walking just screams "dead men walking", and then the entrance into the ruin. COME ON. Seriously? That was just silly to me.

The appearance of the Thai children throughout is relevant not only because of the ties to Joshua being a child himself. The children represent Need. The poor children in the city begging Paul for money, the orphans in Burma needing a place to be cared for, the zombie kids needing someone to let them know they haven't been "let go". Jeanne fulfilling that final need. I actually really liked that part at the very end, but I don't see why Jeanne couldn't have just run off...although, then Paul would have spent the entire film alone looking for her most likely to end up in the same place and still get torn to pieces.
That part, by the way, didn't shock me (both because I knew that it was going to happen, and I'd seen the photos of the filming of the scene and you can easily tell that it isn't his actual front that his insides are being pulled from. The top half is far too boxy), it just confused me.

Needless to say, I loved Rufus in this. His emotion was fantastic (the scene where he's drunk and pleading for Joshua's ghost to go home was probably one of the best pieces of acting I've ever seen Rufus perform. It reminded me of an extreme version of Jacob's hallucination). Paul's look, manner, personality, I loved all of it. Emmanuelle Beart was incredible. Any woman able to be in so rough a love scene with our guy naked and gasping above her without even the slightest hint of a smile or sparkle in her eyes deserves a standing ovation. The dead-ness behind her eyes was so convincing! It seemed a bit difficult for Rufus to kiss her though...I'm not sure if that was real or meant to be that way.

I liked this film a lot. It was very, very artsy and really explored grief and the human mind. I'm not a parent myself, so I can only imagine what it would be like to lose a child, but it was not hard for me to imagine what grief can do to a person. I went through a very dark time some years ago involving many things but most of it was to do with a great deal of grief that refused to settle and it backfired on me big time. It's a film I'd watch again, but I can see myself watching the making of more than the actual film. I'm so happy there's such an in-depth making-of on the DVD, and while our guy isn't in it as much as he could have been, every moment he appears is golden. The man is effortlessly hilarious, and his comic timing is perfect. If you're depressed after watching the film, do yourself a favour and watch the making-of. Every moment our guy is on there will make you smile far more than the film made you frown, and in the end, you'll forget that you were ever frowning at all.

[rueful]

You wrote a wonderful review, megagem, with a great analysis of many of the hints and foreshadowing.

Jul 1, 2011 17:51:41 GMT megagem said:

I thought the cab scene was great. The boldness of Jeanne when she says "I know him more than you" is profound.

I liked that moment too (well the whole scene is amazing, incredible acting), mainly because I don't think there's a mother alive who doesn't think that. I know I would say exactly the same thing to my husband, and he would react just like Paul did.

Jul 1, 2011 17:51:41 GMT megagem said:

I (like many of you) didn't understand the sudden re-appearance of Kim. It seemed to me that the director thought the audience needed someone "sexy" to appear to test if Paul still really loved Jeanne despite there being an obvious showing of love only moments before.

Good point. I mentioned in my earlier post, I think the director lost faith in the audience at the end, and maybe this is more evidence of that.

Jul 1, 2011 17:51:41 GMT megagem said:

One other thing that annoyed me was near the end where the horror film cliches came into play...Jeanne lagging behind (we ladies like to lag, don't we...at least she didn't fall while running),

Jul 1, 2011 17:51:41 GMT megagem said:

Needless to say, I loved Rufus in this. His emotion was fantastic (the scene where he's drunk and pleading for Joshua's ghost to go home was probably one of the best pieces of acting I've ever seen Rufus perform.

He was really wonderful! I wish more people had seen this film, even though I don't like the way it ended.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Megagem!

[tipou]

auper review, meg!!!

[kissmekate]

Thanks for your in-depth review/analysis, Meg, fantastic! I like your interpretation of the symbolism a lot.

Jul 1, 2011 17:51:41 GMT megagem said:

His emotion was fantastic (the scene where he's drunk and pleading for Joshua's ghost to go home was probably one of the best pieces of acting I've ever seen Rufus perform. It reminded me of an extreme version of Jacob's hallucination). Paul's look, manner, personality, I loved all of it.

Paul is one of the most intense characters he has played so far in this very sad story, and I loved him, too. Wonderful, wonderful acting.

The man is effortlessly hilarious, and his comic timing is perfect. If you're depressed after watching the film, do yourself a favour and watch the making-of. Every moment our guy is on there will make you smile far more than the film made you frown, and in the end, you'll forget that you were ever frowning at all.

Oh yes! Particularly the little scene with that insect in the glass

[chocolate]

tipou, I have met some very sensitive men hiding behind some very annoying hard-core facades, but that's not the point, I know. While we, as women, are much more flexible, and that is by nature and the need to survive and protect our children, thus seeming to be playing different games all the time and having hidden agendas, some men do have very genuine sensitivity, that gets in the line of fire quite a lot.
My perception of Paul was for a man of that type. Yes, I agree, he was also protective as a father and husband. And I also agree with that pic .

meg, wonderful review. the writer inside you .

[chocolate]

As for the symbolism in the movie, and the director's decision for the ending... I really do not want to go that deep, although I can say a lot about that. For me, movies as an art form can be very specific and can have layers and layers of depth. I avoid talking about those layers.
But one thing for me is certain. That ending was over the top; it was this anti-hollywood idea to have an overly realistic and dark, unhappy ending; "lets-blow-their-socks-off" thing. It shows me that the director has lost his sense of how the original idea had to be represented, he has lost the rhythm of the film, and that he has also lost his trust in himself as the creator. Usually, when you create art, no matter of the form, you need to know when to stop, but that sensitivity you shape in your whole artistic life, and also during the creation of this specific piece. The moment you loose yourself in it, you start making mistakes to the point of destroying the whole project. Than, no matter what you do and how you explain, it just seems wrong and broken. That is why I do not like to talk too much (imagine that! ) about films. Movies are stories. And we love listening to/watching stories. If the master is a master, explanation should not be needed, in terms of the director saying what he wanted to achieve and how he wanted to do that. The message could be symbolic, and still can have a very clear meaning. But too much symbolism turns good art into ... too much symbolism. The secret is in the dose and how everything is woven together- the idea/s, the action, the lighting and the colors (most very good directors have a very specific needs when it comes to color selection in general and in particular), the way the film is cut and put together, the music; everything need to be in its place and in the right amount. In Vinyan it was almost perfect.

I find watching Vinyan very difficult every time. Now I even need to force myself to watch the film, just to enjoy the actors (especially one of them ) together. If Rufus was not in it, I really wouldn't have seen that film, despite the original idea, the message and the the artistic attempt to do things differently. Rufus did an amazing job there, and if my taste was not spoiled by that awful ending and some other aspects of the film, I would have put Paul on my number 1 position of Rufus' characters. Or rather I will put Paul there, but only after and in the shadow of Charles II.

[tipou]

Jul 2, 2011 11:51:33 GMT chocolate said:

That ending was over the top; it was this anti-hollywood idea to have an overly realistic and dark, unhappy ending;
Usually, when you create art, no matter of the form, you need to know when to stop,

If the master is a master, explanation should not be needed, in terms of the director saying what he wanted to achieve and how he wanted to do that. The message could be symbolic, and still can have a very clear meaning. But too much symbolism turns good art into ... too much symbolism.

y. Rufus did an amazing job there, and if my taste was not spoiled by that awful ending and some other aspects of the film, I would have put Paul on my number 1 position of Rufus' characters. Or rather I will put Paul there, but only after and in the shadow of Charles II.

ohmygod chocolate YES YES YES
i second every single word
AND CHARLES 2 IS YOUR FAVOURTIE TOO - you are my BFF definitely
BRILLIANT

[joyceinva]

Meg - brilliant review of Vinyan- totally blown away by your analysis. I also agree with all who feel that as the movie went on the director began to loose faith in his audience. From a strong beginning to many horror movie cliches began to creep in. I laughed at your comment about Jeanne lagging behind. She was also a victim of one of my pet peeve cliches, the inappropriate dress cliche. As they were preparing to go into the deep jungle I actually said to myself - please god, do NOT have her wear a skirt and heels. And in the very next scene, yep, there was Jeanne in a gauzey white skirt and heeled sandals. Just what the typical male director would do to show instability in a woman. So much easier than respecting the acting abilities of your actress to portray growing madness and despair. Either that or it was the sexist choice to allow Jeanne to later appear in "interestingly" tattered clothes.

Also agree with chocolate that the ending was way over the top - but to me the ending was a very hollywood ending to a non-hollywood film. I.e. - let's do something shocking that will gross out/startle the viewers rather than make them think. I found the ending of this movie unsatisfying.

[tipou]

Jul 2, 2011 21:42:05 GMT @joyceinva said:

the ending was a very hollywood ending to a non-hollywood film. I.e. - let's do something shocking that will gross out/startle the viewers rather than make them think.

very intersting point of view, joyce. my oh my we have very good movie critics over here

great jobs, ladies, seriously. this beats any current movie critic show on tv.

[megagem]

Aww, thank you ladies! I had a lot of fun typing it up, and exactly as Choc says, the writer came out (and it will continue to, so be warned! LOL! In future, I'll put up a spoiler-warning-like message except mine will say "IT JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON" or "DO YOU HAVE A YEAR FREE?" LOL!)
I love what you posted after mine, Choc. I generally wouldn't have gone so far in-depth with the symbolism and the first time I watched it, I didn't really take note of any of it (because I didn't know what to expect all the way through and, honestly, who takes note of symbols when there's a story to be heard and a shirtless Rufus to be watched?)
I do love my symbols though, and foreshadowing. It's a chance for a writer to mercilessly tease the reader or the audience. It's so much fun to sprinkle it where it's least expected, and I think it was fairly well done in Vinyan, although the meanings behind all the symbols are almost always a matter of opinion which makes it even more interesting. I do agree with you, though, Choc when you said that too much symbolism turns true art into just a bunch of symbolism. The story loses touch with itself, and that may have been why the ending was so bad. It was incredibly lazy and you're right Joyce, it was "a very Hollywood ending to a non-Hollywood film".
This film fascinated me, though, and I don't really know why. It might have been the struggle of the characters, the location, or...I don't know. All I know is it struck a chord and it'll definitely be one I'll continue to watch over and over as the years go by, and I'll just fast-forward Paul's death as though it had never happened. Problem solved
Has anyone ever done a Vinyan alternate-ending fanfic? It would be interesting to know how you all would've ended it if given the chance.

[kissmekate]

Joyce, the "Hollywood ending to a non-Hollywood film" hits the nail on the head. It just didn't fit the rest of the movie. The development of the couple's relationship, the slow deterioration, Jeanne's descent into madness and Paul's growing desperation were so well done - creepy because it was so realistic. This authentic depiction would have sufficed by itself, no need for horror movie clichés.

(And I thought the same about the dress and heels )

Jul 3, 2011 1:09:28 GMT megagem said:

Has anyone ever done a Vinyan alternate-ending fanfic? It would be interesting to know how you all would've ended it if given the chance.

I don't think any of our fanfic ladies has done this. Why don't you give it a try?

[joyceinva]

The only alternate ending I can think of is that Paul kills Jeanne (maybe in her sleep) to spare her a lingering death. Then he dies from a lack of food/drinkable water. I don't see them getting out of rhat jungle alive. Her madness and his willingness to cater to that madness doomed them from the start.